Over at A Taxing Matter, Linda Beale has taken a look at the question, in Progressive Taxation--Socialism? or Just Standard USA Tax Policy?. She does a good job refuting the claim that progressive taxation constitutes socialism, and makes some additional points that I didn't set forth. Take a look.
One of the regular readers of MauledAgain wrote with these comments:
Regarding your blog post on the topic of socialism, it is not merely increasing taxes on the so-called wealthy that is denounced as socialism; it has always been part of Obama's platform to increase tax on the wealthy, but you'll find the media references to "socialism" with respect to Obama has only picked up a great deal lately. It is raising taxes on the wealthy and then redistributing those dollars to people who do not pay any income tax whatsoever (and in amounts in excess of employment taxes they pay) - a tenet of the Obama proposal that has only recently begun to get attention, and Obama's admitting that his goal is to "spread the wealth," that strikes many as socialist. This is plainly stated in the article that you link to at the beginning of your blog post. I don't think your post gave the cries of socialism a fair shake, as you mostly defeat an argument they are not making (you state "revoking income tax cuts for the wealthy isn't socialism" - I don't think many disagree with that, by itself). Additionally, there is likely a heightened sensitivity to socialism currently, following the bail-out and fed purchase of bank stock - each of which has been ridiculed as socialist by many on the right.I responded to his comments as follows:
It is a basic tenet of socialism to spread wealth around, and the circumstances surrounding Obama's tax cut/raise and his comments do seem to cross an admittedly arbitrary line into real socialism (as opposed to the imaginary socialism, the pejorative term used to describe Demoratic safety net policies that have been around for 70 years). Rather than saying we need to fund government, and what is a fair way to spread the cost around (e.g., Clinton raised taxes predominately on the wealthy in 1993, but on everyone), the new policy is to increase taxes on some in order to write checks to others. You may find the policy pleasing, necessary and/or fair, but it is a new policy in this country that I don't recall any major party candidate advocating, and goes far beyond merely raising taxes on the rich to pay for a war.
Obama has also stated that he didn't care whether increasing capital gains tax would DECREASE government revenue (it is not important whether the premise is true, it's Obama's state of mind that is relevant), because according to him, increasing the tax is a matter of fairness. This comment was also shocking to many, implying that he would deliberately increase the deficit in order to cause certain people to have less money. It is these circumstances which have caused many to claim him to be a socialist.
Perhaps we interpret Obama's statement differently. I did not read it as revoking the tax cut on the wealthy in order to give cash to the poor and middle class. I read it as revoking the tax cut on the wealthy so that the government did not need to rack up deficits to provide the health care, school lunches, head-start education programs, and other benefits that indeed give opportunity to people who otherwise would be stuck in poverty.My reader in turn offered this rebuttal:
This nation has been doing that for decades. It's socialism, perhaps not as far along the spectrum as Sweden's version, but it's socialism. When the administration refused to raise taxes to finance the war, it ended up cutting benefits to those in need. Obama seeks to fix that problem. That problem is exacerbated by the impact of cutting taxes on the wealthy, who didn't trickle much down to the poor other than short-term smoke and mirrors and longer-term financial distress. The poor and lower middle class will suffer far more from the present and continuing recession (depression, perhaps) than will the wealthy.
A few responses though:And I, of course, tried to clarify my position:
1. Bush cut benefits to those in need? He doubled the size of government yet he managed to cut benefits? I remember all kinds of hollering in the Gingrich years about cuts in spending (which were really increases that were not as large as some liked) but I don't recall hearing that Bush has cut anything. Has he really?
2. This is a side issue, but tax cuts for the rich can be justified on moral/fairness grounds - if I believe tax rates are too high for those making between $200,000 and $500,000, then I'll support cutting their tax rates. Whether wealth "trickles down," or whether or not it helps the economy, is beside the point. The point of raising taxes is to pay for government, not rectify life's injustices or turn on or off the economy.
3. we may interpret Obama's comments differently, but my point is not to argue what Obama meant, but what Republicans who are crying "socialism" mean. They don't mean that raising taxes on the wealthy is, by itself, socialism. They mean that raising taxes on one group, while writing checks to another group who doesn't pay tax, all in the interest of spreading the wealth, sounds like socialism.
4. your response to #3 may be we already have socialism to some degree. True. This raises it a notch. But government ownership of banks, the bailout and the explicit policy of wealth redistribution (taxing some to write checks to others) crosses the line from an acceptable level of socialism (the safety net that's been in effect forever) to, for lack of a better phrase, "real" socialism.
The Bush spending doubled because of interest on the debt, the Iraq war, the war in Afghanistan, whereas states have struggled under mandates (federal imposition of obligations without federal funding). Taxes pay for government, and government needs to maintain a stable and productive society, which it cannot do if the poor get poorer, the rich get richer, and the gap widens. I'm no fan of the bailout -- read my posts -- but that was bipartisan socialism, and McCain voted for it, so it seems it's ok to take from the poor and middle class and redistribute wealth that way. Or at least to create conditions "conducive to business" that benefit the wealthy. Real socialism occurs when the government owns everything. We're not there yet.And I should add, that's not where we will be. Surely letting tax rates return to where they were, and to where they should have returned when war erupted, is not going to trigger government ownership of everything. The government didn't own everything when income tax rates were more than double what they would be if the tax cuts for high income taxpayers are permitted to expire.
What I think underlies these charges of socialism is fear. It's fear, not of millionaires paying another fifty or a hundred thousand dollars in taxes, not of government taking over ownership of all assets, but of change. For quite some time, the economic and tax arrangement have favored the wealthy. They created this arrangement by persuading the middle class and even the poor that life would be better if income taxes were cut, particularly income taxes on capital gains and dividends. Yet when all was said and done and the policies advanced by the tax cutters played out, the nation ended up in what may be the worst economic catastrophe it has faced. While wages barely kept pace with inflation, and in some instances fell, while jobs were outsourced, while the quality of products and services suffered, while health care became less affordable and less available, while resources allocated to education continued to be insufficient, the percentage of wealth owned by the wealthy increased. Because the sales pitch worked in the past, they expected it to work again, but to their surprise, the track record of the don't-tax-but-spend crowd has turned out to be no better than, and in most respects worse than, the track record of the tax-and-spend crowd. With that taking the wind out of their economic policy sails, they turned their focus on a broader question, using terminology designed to spread their fear throughout the electorate.
The answer to Joe the Plumber's question was honest. It might not be something with which people agree, but at least it's not the misleading promise that cutting taxes will make everyone economically secure. And underneath this trumpeting of the "socialism" warning cry is an unarticulated lack of faith in America, a notion that somehow citizens will sit back and do nothing if attempts to fix the economic mess turn too sharply to what genuinely is socialism rather than returning the country to the path which uses economic policy to promote fairness, affordable health care, improvement in children's education, and the other characteristics of high quality of life that were promised but not delivered by the merchants of tax cuts for high income taxpayers. I don't see the appeal in continuing to do what has been done, when what has been done is what brought us to where we are.