It appears from our discussion that Nakul and I agree on zero-based budgeting. That is, an annual government budget should not be constructed by allocating increases to the previous year's budget, but should be determined by examining each expenditure and determining its appropriateness. Of course, there may be instances where previous year decisions constrain the decision making with respect to certain items, such as interest on government debt, but that ought not create a blank check for every program in the budget.
There's no question that Nakul and I are not the first, and will not be the last, people to sit down and ponder the appropriate role of government. Even where we agree in a general sense, such as the appropriateness of defense spending as part of a federal budget, we haven't focused on the details. After all, we haven't accomplished much merely by accepting the idea of national defense as an appropriate federal function. Questions such as weapons systems procurement, policy decisions such as those concerning the use of troops overseas and in humanitarian efforts can be resolved in ways that would require significantly higher or lower spending levels. In turn, this would affect the tax policy analysis.
Nakul and I also brushed aside the important question of whether an appropriate government function should be conducted by the federal government, a state government, or a local government. We also paid little attention to the question of whether a state or local government function should be funded at the state or local level or wholly or partially through the use of federal revenues. We also left to another day the issue of whether an appropriate government function should be funded through user fees, income taxes, consumption taxes, sales taxes, or some other one or more of the seemingly infinite collection of taxes that exists in the modern public arena.
Our discussion when I replied to Nakul's email that pointed me to the Wall Street Journal op-ed piece that I critiqued on Monday. I commented that the piece presented "regurgitated arguments" and mentioned the possibility of the post that I did in fact write and publish Monday. I noted that one flaw was "that the op-ed argues for a low rate on the deferred stuff, which is not as beneficial to Joe as a low(er) rate on the current (wage) income." Nakul responded, "Personally, I think the answer is a lower marginal tax rate on income for everyone who pays taxes, followed by a lower tax rate on capital gains. This should be financed by massive cuts in needless and/or wasteful government programs. But I doubt that will happen." Interestingly, in his last email, Nakul noted that I had "convinced" him on the capital gains issue. That leaves, however, the proposition that there can be "massive cuts in needless and/or wasteful government programs."
So I challenged Nakul: " I'd be interested in your candidates for spending reductions and the amounts to be cut (so we could then figure out how much of a tax cut could be implemented)." Nakul's response was philosophical:
In terms of "what is that something" that we should limit government spending to, I think that requires a philosophical/political argument as to what is the role of a government in a free society. I submit that the only proper role of government is the protection of individual rights - which means that the government has a monopoly over the use of physical force. Thus a government in a free society should be limited to a police force to protect individuals from criminals, a military to protect us from foreign invaders (or terrorists) and a court system so that we can resolve disputes (and seek damages for torts) and protect our intellectual property. Other than that, I don't really see much of a role for government. As the Declaration of Independence says (I'm paraphrasing): governments are instituted among men to secure these interests. A society where a government doesn't have a monopoly over the use of physical force is anarchy. A society where the government has a monopoly over the use of physical force, but does not recognize individual rights, is a dictatorship. A proper society must have both: (1) Government monopoly over the use of physical force; and (2) a clear and unequivocal recognition of individual rights. America is the first nation to ever attempt this.In turn, I posed this question to Nakul:
Obviously, we don't live in that world right now -- and so applying these principles to our current situation, I would slowly start to phase out lavish entitlement programs such as Social Security (the President's plan is a start), welfare, Medicare and Medicaid. I believe these entitlement programs alone make about 40-50% of our national budget (as compared to national defense which is a little less than 20% - I believe). Phasing these programs out would allow for a significant reforming of our tax code. Obviously, there is a lot of other government waste that can be cut out once we've determined what the proper role of government is. That should be our primary debate.
Without taking a position on any of these at the moment (for in some instances I'm not sold one way or the other, nor am I focused on a federal v. state differentiation), what of....Demonstrating that his law school education had been assimilated, Nakul artfully answered some of my questions and sidestepped others:
Fire protection?
Health and rescue squads?
Protection from hazardous spills, etc?
Disaster prevention and relief?
Control of airspace for airplanes?
Construction and maintenance of highways, bridges, tunnels?
Protection of quality of agricultural products?
Protection of quality of medicines?
Protection of labor?
Protection of public health?
Prevention of negative environmental impacts on people and their
property?
Preservation of natural resources such as national parks?
Education of children?
I'm sure there are more.
Of course, there are some things government currently does that I
wouldn't have government doing ....
I suspected that you were going to ask some of these questions! Like my father used to say (He's also a professor), a good professor is always one step ahead of his students.I could not resist playing devil's advocate, which is a technique that can reveal the depth of another person's commitment to their argument:
First, I don't believe in "preventative law" -- thus I would again phase out government organizations such as the SEC, FDA, FTC, etc. Obviously, these things simply can't be disbanded immediately because we've gotten so used to them; however, they can be phased out over time. If I were President (or emperor), I would begin that process.
The building of highways, education, etc should largely, over time, be shifted to private ownership and operation. I think the free market would do a wonderful job in something like education. In fact, there was an interesting article in the WSJ the other day explaining how some municipalities (and soon some states) have begun leasing out their highways to private entities (such as foreign private equity firms — one of which happened to be in Australia). This should be encouraged. To be honest, I haven't completely thought through the fire squads
issue, so I could envision a government role there. However, that may be something that private entities could do as well.
The role of the government is to protect man from man. Certain natural disasters will dictate that the government get involved in emergencies (i.e. Katrina, Tsunamis), but these aren't going to be the normal course of business (hence the term emergency). Nonetheless, it shouldn't be government's role to protect man from nature qua nature. We should of course budget for these potential disasters, but I don't think that will be that expensive.
I know I haven't answered all the questions you asked below, but I hope I've at least conveyed my general belief that the government's primary role should be to protect rights (life, liberty, property, the pursuit of happiness) and not provide services. Services, whatever they may be, should primarily be a private function, with perhaps a few exceptions. Today's mixed economy has government involved in too many things that they shouldn't be involved in. As such, they are spending too much money, and taxing us too much.
I understand your point. I wonder if you have studied the history of public services? At one time government provided no services (it took land, conscripted peasants for military service, and left the populationNakul's response:
to its own fortunes, good or bad, mostly bad). Think of medieval kingdoms. What services were provided came through the church (at least in Western civilization). Eventually, as technology changed and needs evolved, the private enterprises that operated public services had problems. Service was spotty. Canal companies went under. Railroads did a little better until they, too, went under. The societal cost of death and disability from injuries to unprotected workers began to exceed the cost of public regulation of the industries in which these injuries were incurred. So in some respects, the free market and application of economic principles shifted certain services to the public sector because that was more efficient. Then, of course, irrationality set in and policies were formed by those who thought that because some services were more effectively provided by government all services could be more effectively provided by government.
Imagine, for example, private ownership of snow removal from public roads. Wait, they would be private roads, much as Route 30 was once a private turnpike. What happens when the company goes under? Do we litigate for months or years while the road turns to slop? As was the case back then? How do we hold accountable some CEO living in Australia?
How many people must die from bad drugs before the mobs burn down the pharmaceutical company offices and labs? How many people get snookered by bad stock deals before brokers and dealers are gunned down in their offices?
In other words, to the extent government services protect individual rights so that individuals do not seek self-help, then those services which appear to be preventive are actually protective.
I have a casual understanding of the history of public service, but I have to admit, I'm certainly no expert. However, I would respectfully disagree with some of your characterizations of private industry.Nakul had taken the discussion back to the philosophical and political question of how government and the private sector should relate, and I jumped on the opportunity, as I've emphasized in text that was NOT bolded in my response to Nakul but which I highlight here:
As a preliminary matter, when I talk about privatizing certain industries and services, I am not under the false illusion that shifting services from the government to the private sector will be a magical elixir whereby all our problems are automatically solved. My argument is simply this: In the long run, private industry will better be able to provide services such as highways (even snow plowing), education, etc and will do so in more cost effective manner - because they have more of an incentive to do so. Of course, companies may still provide spotty
service, but in a free market they will not stay in business that long. In fact, failure is as much a part of capitalism as success. Except in a market economy, failure breeds success. When the government is involved, failure just breeds more failure.
Also, I would slightly disagree with your characterization of history. Yes, railroads went under, and sometimes wholesale industries failed. Howe ever, that period also saw tremendous economic expansion, an increase in people's standard of living, an increase in health and many other things. That is largely attributable to the largely free market system that existed.
Government, properly defined, is a gun, whose chief responsibility is to protect man from man. It should not be involved in endeavors of the mind. If the market can't figure something out, then I doubt government can either. I have a lot more confidence in an intelligent entrepreneur than I do in some government bureaucrat.
In the end, markets are much better suited to solve economic problems than the government is. History bears that out, and I think we would be wise to begin the process of privatizing government services and continue to do so for the foreseeable future. If we do that, we'll reduce spending, cut taxes and simplify the tax code.
P.S. As far as holding the CEO of an Australian company accountable —- I don't know. However, we could fairly easily get jurisdiction over the entity and assets that the CEO controls. If an Australian company owns assets in America, then we have "minimum contacts" and therefore personal jurisdiction over the company itself - which is probably more useful than having jurisdiction over the CEO.
I agree with some of what you say, perhaps most of it, but when cast against the wider backdrop of experience and the realities of life, the theory of free market snags. Here are some thoughts.This inspired Nakul, who was having as much fun as I was having, and as I hope readers are having, with this discourse:
Private industry is no less likely to fail than is government. This is true so long as the bureaucratic malaise and internal office politics which accounts for most of government failure at the boots-on-the-ground level continue to infect the private sector. Academia is responsible for much of this, arguing for theoretical rights and curtailment of worker discipline, and fueling the migration of bad ethics and lack of incentive from government to the private sector. Where's the free market incentive to excel when it's easier to ask the government to use its fake gun to protect some conjured-up right? Where's the free market to excel when the worker in the next cubicle is thinking about appropriating your ideas? That's why I'm no higher on private industry than I am on government. I'm not painting government with a brush of success when it comes to the enumerated services (though it has done well in certain instances, such as highway construction and the weather service). I'm simply discounting the myth of the marvelous private sector. My power went out again today for the umpteenth time because a moron contractor cut something rather than following government regulations (issued by public utility commissioners) to call before digging. Imagine what it would be like without such regulation. True, an isolated incident but so characteristic of post 1980s society.
The tremendous economic expansion to which you refer was carried on the backs of developing nations. Where is the success of the west without the cheap (or free) labor of the rest of the world? And now that the rest of the world is catching up (or at least chunks of it are), the pressure is on. It was private industry that ran the slave trade, though with the government gun at its side for a while ... and look what happened when government changed its position. It is private industry that to this day moves unwilling workers through the pipelines from
eastern Europe to who-knows-where. It is private industry that could participate in a tremendous economic expansion because it externalized costs such as environmental protection, instead dumping toxic materials everywhere from the Love Canal to the waters of southeast Asia.
Unlike you, I have no more confidence in an intelligent entrepreneur than I do in a government bureaucrat. Intelligence does not guarantee, and often stands in the way of, far-sighted judgment and ethical considerations. Worship of the bottom line profit is what has cheapened, in the long run, the effectiveness and efficiency of the economy. This is not a rejection of capitalism. It is an argument that unregulated capitalism, which flourished in the 18th and first half of the 19th century, brings slavery (real and economic), poisoned environments, worker injury, and a whole host of problems that lets the capitalist class, to its long-run detriment, damage the peasant/worker class on which it depends. And some functions are just too important to leave to an unregulated or a modestly regulated free enterprise system. I don't want the current Russia as the role model.
Thanks for your reply. Although I disagree with you, I have greatly enjoyed this debate. That being said, I think a great many of the points you made below are based on incorrect premises. I think this argument needs to go back to the basics i.e. fundamental premises and theories. Here is my quick attempt to essentialize this debate:Resisting the temptation to prove that I, too, could go on forever, I kept my reply as succinct as I could, because we had reached the point where we knew each other's position and understood it:
Capitalism, properly defined, is both a political and economic system. Politically, it requires the full recognition of individual rights. Those being life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness (and all derivative rights i.e. freedom of speech, religion, freedom from unwarranted searches and seizures, etc). Fundamentally, capitalism is the only moral political system in the world and is the only system that can accommodate man qua man. Therefore, in a capitalist society, no person can infringe on the rights of another - and if they do so, the government must resolve the dispute (as I stated earlier, government has a monopoly on the use of initiation of physical force. Certain exceptions apply, of course, but those are fairly self-evident. Examples include protecting your self from a burglar, and other necessary methods of self-defense that may have to be done before the "government" can get involved). The protection of individual rights also means the protection (and full recognition) of property rights, including intellectual property (which means no one could exert force and steal or appropriate your ideas, especially if they are patented or trademarked) As such, under capitalism, there can be no such thing as slavery, involuntary servitude, or forced labor. Slavery is the antithesis of a society that respects individual rights and cannot exist (for long) in a capitalistic system. Slavery existed in America, but we fought a war to end it because it was not consistent with our fundamental principles and values as a country. The fundamental tenet of capitalism is individual rights: Countries such as Russia are not capitalistic -- they are at best autocratic bordering on a dictatorship. Note the recent government take-over of certain oil companies without due process. That wouldn't happen in a society that recognizes
individual rights.
Along those lines, under capitalism, there is only one way to deal with other men: VOLUNTARILY. If one wishes to buy or sell a good, that sale must be done voluntarily. Each man will work for his own profit and understand that every other man is doing the same. Some men will be better at others than making money (i.e. Bill Gates versus me), but all trade will be value-for-value and will be done freely and without compulsion A man is not a slave to another man if he voluntarily chooses to work for him, even if that man must work to feed his family, and must work for a low wage. Freedom and capitalism do no guarantee every man a living - it just provides a system in which almost all men - who are willing to work, will be able to do so, and be able to do so voluntarily.
Economically speaking, one has to again, start with fundamental premises. All wealth is created - and those who create it deserve to keep the fruits of their own labor (hence the recognition of property rights). America was not created on the backs of cheap labor in foreign countries (although I fully advocate using cheap labor - so long as those providing it do so voluntarily and those seeking it do so ethically). America was made by entrepreneurs, like Rockefeller, Carnegie, Henry Ford and Bill Gates (and many, many, many others). Were those individuals perfect? No. Nonetheless, their ingenuity helped America burgeon into the great country that we are. Moreover, the outsourcing of cheap labor has done a tremendous amount of good for developing countries - see Singapore (who at one time was poor), India, the Philippines for examples.
Capitalism, like humans will not be perfect. People will commit frauds and try to cheat other no matter what system you are in - and those people should be brought to justice, in a rational legal system, which punishes them accordingly. There will still be bad businesses (i.e. your power may still go out because of some moron contractor). Nonetheless, the simple idea that under Capitalism bad people might take advantage of others does not mean that we should simply do away with the system. That would be like discontinuing the use of the automobile
because X amount of people die each year in car accidents. Overall, a capitalistic society, based on individual rights, will be free, prosperous and most likely, very wealthy.
I could go on forever, but I think I stated the essentials. Politically, capitalism means the recognition of individual rights and a government whose sole aim is to vigorously protect them.
Economically, it means the profit motive, trading values for other values, and by-in-large being able to keep the fruits of your own labor - no matter how big or small those fruits may be. Taxes will still need to be levied to pay for critical government functions, but they should not be levied to redistribute wealth or fund massive entitlement programs.
I think perhaps where you and I differ is that you have much more faith in people than do I. If it were a matter of an occasional fraud, a rare theft, sporadic laziness, and once a decade deviousness, I'd be much more likely to agree with your analysis. However, like Diogenes with his lamp, I continue to seek people who can resist the seemingly easy path to quick profits with a well developed moral code.And I let Nakul have the last word and wrap up our fascinating, informative, and pleasant discussion:
Capitalism is the best of what's available, but regulated capitalism is better. Until people recognize individual rights, is there any solace in a government that tries to protect them? Ideally, government's least used function should be protection of rights, for ideally, people would respect each other and not steal, plunder, rape, pillage, and maim. But they do. And after millennia of attempts to create civilization, there is more peace and prosperity when government sets boundaries through democratic processes than when it's a free-for-all free market.
The risk today is that government itself is being corrupted by those who evaded the rules, escaped prosecution, and are taking over the democratic process. They are taking capitalistic control of government. So, no, I would not ditch capitalism but I find it ineffective and inefficient in unregulated form.
If the world had a common religion or ethic, or at least a common set of values shared by all religions, then a spiritual or theological value set could replace the government's role that I am describing. Unfortunately or fortunately, religion does not serve that role well because genuine religious values are irrelevant to large segments of the population. I am not a Catholic Social Thought advocate, but having been exposed to it I recognize that it is sending, in part, a similar message. There is more to social and economic interaction than profit.
You know I wish you were right, and things worked as you describe. But they don't. The answer lies, I think, more in psychology and theology than in economics. But until those disciplines come up with cures, the economic and tax world needs to manufacture better band-aids.
I agree with you 100% on the idea that economics is not a primary - philosophy/morals is. A society cannot have the right economic system if it does not have the right moral code.So, ending with his revised tax reform proposal, Nakul never did specifically mention that he and I agreed governments ought not be funding student travel to college Bowl games, as I pointed out in last Friday's post. Of course, dealing with this sort of government expenditure, so clearly inappropriate, would not have given Nakul and I to engage in our typically extended analysis. There's no fun, in this context, with mutual "You're right, that's a totally unwise government spending decision" emails.
I'm not suggesting that human interaction is solely for profit (I don't think my wife would like that very much). But at the same time, the profit motive is profoundly moral and should be encouraged - however, it is not the end all, be all of life. You're right that no political party these days really recognizes individual rights. Democrats certainly don't recognize property rights - at least not consistently. The so-called conservatives are much better on property rights, but don't really recognize a right to privacy (which is a common sense derivative of the right to life) and other "unenumerated" rights.
Anyway, capitalism, as I want it, doesn't exist today, and probably won't exist in my lifetime. Despite our different philosophies, I still think we could probably take a look at the budget and come up with some programs that we could cut. I think even the most ardent of government regulation enthusiasts would have to admit that we are spending way too much money. Cutting even a few programs - or at least trimming them down, would be a good start.
As a side note, you've convinced me on the capital gains tax issue. Although I think that cutting the capital gains tax should be done - I can see why doing that would disadvantage middle class and low-income wage earners. I would propose one flat tax - maybe 15% on all income, no matter how it was earned. Those who don't pay taxes now, will still not have to pay taxes under my plan (low-income earners). I would eliminate most deductions - except maybe the exemptions for dependents we have now.